Understanding Tax Credit Insurance in the U.S. Market In Conversation w/ Jerry Smith

In Conversation – Jerry Smith / Atlantic Global Risk 

In this episode of In Conversation, Fiona Wilson dives into the role of tax insurance in renewable energy and sustainable infrastructure projects with Jerry Smith, Managing Director and Head of Tax insurance at Atlantic Global Risk.

Renewable energy professionals in the US will be familiar with how central the Production Tax Credit (PTC) and the Investment Tax Credit (ITC) have been in the realm of solar and wind finance over the past decades, as well as how the passage of the Inflation Reduction Act (IRA) in August 2022 has further bolstered incentives for sustainable infrastructure development in the United States.  However, the uncertainty around eligibility criteria for new incentives as well as the inherent risk in realizing the PTC or ITC over time has led to tax insurance playing an important role in project bankability. Jerry gives us a rundown on the role of tax insurance as well as the market changes he’s seen since the IRA provided for tax credit transferability.

If you’d like to get in touch with Jerry, you can reach him at jerry.smith@atlanticgrp.com   

We’d love to hear your feedback on the interview, so please comment with questions or reflections. Thanks for watching! 

If you’d like to learn more about tax credits and transferability, check out the following resources:

• Pivotal180’s conversation with Andy Moon with Reunion Infra: Tax Credit Transfer Opportunities
• Matt Davis’s blog on Pros and Cons of Transferability
• Pivotal180’s Tax Equity Modeling Course

 

 

Interview Transcript 

Fiona: Hi everyone, and welcome back to In Conversation, which is Pivotal 180 interview series. We get to talk with leaders in the field about energy finance, sustainable infrastructure, renewable energy, and all topics in that space. Today we’re talking with Jerry Smith from Atlantic Global Risk, and we’re actually talking about tax insurance and specifically tax credit insurance. So those of you in the US are gonna be familiar with tax equity, which is how most, you know, renewable energy projects in the US have been financed historically. The US has incentivized renewable energy projects through the production tax credits and the investment tax credits. They’re also commonly referred to as the PTC and the ITC. So that’s a little bit of a different mechanism than is used in other electricity markets around the world. You know, you might have seen feed-in tariffs or other types of subsidies. So this is specific to the US market, but I also think this discussion around ensuring risk and understanding the tax profile of a renewable energy or infrastructure project is applicable more broadly. So we hope our international audience gets something from this conversation as well. I’m gonna let Jerry introduce himself and his work. Really excited for this conversation today. As always, please leave your questions and comments. Any reflections either on the YouTube channel or directly contact us at Pivotal 180, thanks everyone. Hi Jerry, welcome to In Conversation and thank you for joining us today.

Jerry: Yeah, happy to be here, thanks for having me.

Fiona: Great, so just to start things off, we’d love to hear from you in your own words a little bit about your work at Atlantic and also Atlantic’s position in the tax insurance market. Just as a little background for our listeners.

Jerry: Sure, so Atlantic is a transactional insurance broker. We focus on just four specific things that are all transactional in nature as opposed to the soup to nuts brokers that others may be familiar with. So, for example, we don’t do homeowners insurance. We don’t do property and casualty insurance or directors officer’s insurance. We focus on four separate and distinct things. One is reps and warranties insurance , which is commonly used in M&A transactions. One is tax insurance, which is what we’re here to talk about today. Another is credit insurance or nonpayment insurance. It’s a insurance version of credit default swaps. And then we have something called structured solutions, which is more esoteric risks that are kind of one-off bespoke solutions. So that’s what Atlantic does. Within the tax insurance world, we do a number of different types of things. I think pertinent to this conversation, more than 50% of of our transactions this year have been related to tax credit insurance. We can get into that a bit later, but we do things all across the piece of tax insurance world. Basically, if you have a tax risk that’s either stopping a transaction from going forward, that’s common in M&A context, we call them M&A adjacent risks, these are risks that aren’t includable within an M&A reps and warranties policy, but they’re otherwise big. They’re sound reasoning, there’s good support behind them, but if they go wrong, it creates a big problem for folks. So that’s an area that we often step into and help solve. But it has a variety of flavors to it, tax insurance does. The basic premise of it though is that insurers are there to help transactions get done. They’re there to support strong risks. It’s not a risk transfer that allows folks to take bad risks and put them in the hands of insurers. Instead, it’s a way to take good risks, things that people are generally comfortable with, but one side or the other is not quite comfortable bearing or maybe they’re full up on the risk of that type in their books and therefore need to have somebody else take some of that risk off their plate. So that’s generally where we come into the game, is to try identify those things. Help to identify solutions for folks who are stuck in a transaction. In a tax credit world, it’s helping to facilitate transactions that involve potentially new players, which we can get into in a little bit down the road. But the Inflation Reduction Act introduced a lot of new players into the world and therefore the usefulness of insurances expanded dramatically.

Fiona: Makes sense, great, so I’m not a tax insurance expert myself. We are not expecting our audience to be insurance experts either. Many are gonna be familiar with the concept of it, but I think it’s also good to preface the conversation with a little bit of specifics about how tax insurance functions in the renewable energy or, you know, infrastructure market in the United States. Hopefully our international listeners will find this interesting as well. But in the US the federal government has not historically incentivized renewable energy projects through, you know, feed and tariffs or other mechanisms like that because the way our electricity system is regulated, that’s not possible. And so the federal government has incentivized solar, wind, other renewable energy projects through tax credits like the production tax credit that is based on how much energy your project generates. So kilowatt hours or megawatt hours or the investment tax credit, which is based on, you know, the initial capital cost of the project. Some summarizing here, you can go way more in depth, but you might’ve heard of these referred to as the the PTC or the ITC. So can you just give us a little bit of an explanation about how tax insurance, or specifically tax credit insurance would function in this market in the US and how it contributes to these projects?

Jerry: Sure, so, you know, again, for the viewers who have varying levels of grasp of the system here. I think it may take a step back for, for a moment. So 2023 is a new era for the tax credit world because it’s following the enactment of the Inflation Reduction Act in August of 2022. But prior to that, in fact for, you know, two decades or so, there has been a market in the US for these subsidies for renewable energy projects, wind and solar predominated, pre-IRA. But the way that those credits were monetized were what’s called a tax equity investment. So basic premises, if the government’s going to incentivize investment in a space through the tax line by giving tax credits, people need to owe tax to have that be valuable, right. So that’s an obvious statement, but a lot of developers are not in the, you know, are in the business or doing well for themselves, but they just frankly don’t make enough money yet to be able to monetize all those credits themselves. So the industry that sprung up to help incent or to help maximize that subsidy is to have financial institutions and later some other types of institutions do structured loans into these project companies in such a way that they could attract the credit part of it to the tax pieces and some nominal cash returns, and, therefore, help turn those tax credits into dollars for the developers to help them recycle their capital, that’s tax equity in a nutshell. So that had been a field where tax credit insurance, so back to your question, did play a part, but not as much a part as it does today. That said, it was growing over time because folks realized that there was other uses for tax credit insurance beyond just getting people comfortable with the underlying risk. And the risk is basically, is the credit a good credit, right? And is this mechanism, this structured financing that I mentioned appropriate did legally, does it transfer the credit to the party that thought that they were monetizing it, right? Those were the fundamental risks that existed prior to ’23 and still exist today. There’s some new risks that have propped up since then, which we’ll go into in a moment. But just starting there as the base, that is why tax credit insurance has had a use prior to ’23 and it’s not been a small use either. Actually it started small. So just give you a little bit of history here. I haven’t always been a tax broker, a tax insurance broker. I ran a tax equity desk at Credit Suisse from 2009 to to earlier this year. We invested about four and a half billion dollars in tax equity, right. I, in my seat, bought insurance closer to today than at the start of my career. But started to see that there was a utility to having tax credit insurance as a value prop. For me, it was because I had too much risk on my book. And to be able to, to buy insurance, help me reduce that risk and help me do more, right. That’s a way that tax credit insurances can help facilitate the industry. It can help players who are interested investing in the space, invest more in the space ’cause someone else is there to take some risk off their books, okay. So that was the scene that at least to how I participated prior to 2023, many others have participated in greater or lesser degree in similar fashions and with sign similar calculus as far as how it helps their business. Now, let’s fast forward, now we’re in 2023. Inflation Reduction Act has come along and it’s done a couple of interesting things. One, it extended the term of the tax credit. In other words, it gave you certainty for 10 years that tax credits would be available, that’s different than it was prior to 23, because before then it had to be renewed every one or two years to have the credit continue to apply. Very difficult for folks to put long-term dollars out the door on the hope that maybe the credit will be available once their project is placed in service. Because if it’s timed wrong and it ends up getting placed in service when the credit’s expired or never gets renewed, that’s a huge issue. Now, there’s a 10 year window which gave some more certainty for financing partners. So that’s one thing it did. Second thing it did is it enhanced the number of credits that were available. Now, we talked about wind and solar in the past, but there’s 11 credits that are now capable of being monetized under the Inflation Reduction Act. So expanded the scope and the breadth of the industry. In some cases, even though there was a credit that existed before, for example, 45Q, which is carbon capture and sequestration. It enhanced the size of the credit, which made it more bankable and more interesting to folks to put money out the door because that’s another interesting thing that it did. But the third interesting thing, which actually is the biggest reason for tax insurance growth is that it enhanced the ability to transfer credits in a much simpler way than tax equity. So tax equity, I mentioned pre ’23, very complicated structured financing, but I that was not doing its full service to kind of what it entailed, reasonably complicated, interesting accounting issues around it, huge barriers for entry for new folks to come into the field. Now, transferability much simpler, it’s a contract. You take a credit that’s earned by a developer in a facility in a project company, and that credit can be transferred to any US party. That’s a corporation that’s subject to tax, right. One simple contract, okay, sounds easy, right. And sounds like, okay, great, maybe everybody should jump all over themselves to try to get involved in the industry. And, and largely we see that happening, we see the beginnings of that, but of course it’s never that simple, right. So yes, people have appetite to be green, you know, to participate in the industry and doing a simple way, but at the end of the day, they don’t want risk coming back to them, right. Their value proposition is, I owe a hundred dollars. I would like to buy a hundred dollars of credits in a simple way, which this allows them to do, but I don’t want the risk that credit’s not a good credit.

Fiona: Okay.

Jerry: What’s the solution? Tax insurance, it helps add to the underlying analysis. Again, as I said at the outset, it’s for good risks, right. It’s for properly constructed projects that have been done the right way and for which a good tax memo is capable of being drafted. But this gives extra certainty for folks who don’t want to do the brain damage to figure that out themselves.

Fiona: Yeah, makes sense, it’s complex, but in a way, since the passage of the Inflation Reduction Act, things have gotten a little bit more straightforward in that, you know, again, for our international audience, tax equity is a pretty complex field. Pivotal 180 has, you know, financial modeling courses on tax equity and it’s more advanced than, for example, like the straightforward renewable energy project finance modeling courses. Not a lot of people understand tax equity. It’s a pretty detailed concept to understand. and prior to the IRA passage in August, 2022, again, for these developers of projects to really get the full benefit of these tax credits, they had to enter into meaningful equity partnerships with, you know, kind of just a handful of big players in the tax equity market and those are really complex transactions. Now with the option of transferability, there’s, you know, a much bigger market for these tax credits because they can be transferred to entities that don’t actually have an equity stake in the project. We did an interview, I think August or September with Andy Moon, Reunion Infrastructure, Reunioninfra, excuse me, and they’ve created a marketplace, a platform. They’re not the only one to facilitate transfer of these tax credits. So I definitely recommend listeners to go back and listen to that one. That was a really good episode. But yeah, this makes a lot of sense that a lot of the new buyers are maybe not doing the full due diligence that they would if they were entering into an equity relationship in these projects, but they still want some added security and literally insurance that they’ll be able to monetize that tax credit in the end. So Jerry, maybe can we get even a little bit more specific about what the risk are?

Jerry: Wanna get granular? Oh, okay, that’s good.

Fiona: Yeah, so let’s really get into it with, with insurance, what are some of the specific risks that you’re insuring for or you’re assisting parties in accessing insurance for?

Jerry: Yeah, I mean, that’s a great distinction there because we are brokers here, right. I think, let me just start on that for a moment and then I’ll get into the specific risks. But I think that’s one of the key things when you’re working a broker and there’s, we’re not the only broker out there. We admit that we might think we’re the best one, but we’re not the only one. But I think what’s important is that when you work with somebody like that. You work with someone who has a good understanding of the fundamental projects themselves, you know, so that they can help streamline the process for getting insurance ’cause we’re the go-between be between our client, which is the developer typically, or the tax equity investor, whoever is needing comfort from the risks and you know, that between our client and the underwriters themselves who do the heavy lifting on determining whether it’s an insurable risk. But, you know, when we work on these things, our hope is that that latter part becomes a fait accompli. It’s, you know, it’s teed up so well. We understand what they’re looking for. We can help manage that process pretty cleanly. But the risks themselves, let’s transition to that. So it differs, I mentioned before there was 11 different types of credits. Broadly though they do fall into the categories. You mentioned the ITC and the PTC. There are some variations on the theme, which we can talk about in a bit. But let’s start with the ITC, that’s the most encompassing bundle of risks. It’s, as you say, related to upfront investment into the projects. The credits earned at the outset when it’s placed in service, when the project’s placed in service. And there are four buckets of risks and with some sub buckets in a couple of them. So it’s never that easy of course, right. So the first point is qualification, okay. Is the credit a good credit? Is it the type of facility that is enumerated in the statute as, as giving rise to a credit, that’s worth six percentage points if you clear that, and all these risks, by the way, that I’m about to tell you are capable of being insured with varying degrees of underlying documentation, okay. But after the 6%, the next, you know, kind of the building block, if you will, is what’s called prevailing wage and apprenticeship, okay. There’s new rules from the IRA basically trying to, to make sure that workers are coming into these projects and they’re being paid a competitive wage and there’s growth in the market via apprenticeships to help to bring more people into the field. There’s some reasonably straightforward requirements that have to be managed, but there’s also some cure rights that are important if for some reason when looking backwards, if there’s been a failure to reach a certain compensation threshold, for example. So the workers have to be paid above the federal relevant rate for similar types of workers. And one other nuance, if your project began construction before January 29th of 2023, then there’s exempt from this requirement. So whether that is been established properly or not is also something that’s capable of being shared, okay. So 6% credit on the base, five times multiplier is this prevailing wage and apprenticeship. So it brings six up to 30, okay. Then on top of that, still in that first bucket, I told you there’s some sub buckets here. There’s some other adders that are available. So one is called an energy community adder. There’s three different ways you can achieve that. Next one’s called domestic content. Does your facility have the requisite amount of US-sourced materials? And that’s another 10 percentage points and then the final one is low and middle income communities, that’s one that’s done by application to be able to achieve, but that can add either 10 percentage points or 20 percentage points. So really if you had like the, you know, the superstar structure here and you’re able to put all of those things together, you know, you could, you could get a credit of, what’s the math, I guess it’s 70%, 70, not typically seen, but it is not uncommon to see a 10% adder here or there, right. So, but all those pieces are insurable, varying degrees, as I mentioned, of documentation that’s needed to support those. Some bit of a tax memo or tax analysis to support pieces of it, but also some fundamental underlying documentation as well, so that’s category one. Category two is called qualified basis, so typically the credit percentage, which we calculated in the first one, you know, be it 6,30,40 up to 70 gets multiplied times the basis of the assets that are the right type of assets in a facility, okay. Now, the question comes down to what’s the right number for that? Is it the cost, the cost of construction, or is there some argument that it should be a higher number because the project’s actually worth more, right? So what’s common commonly seen here is that a project is built by a developer, sold to another entity that’s unrelated to the developer, and then that’s the entity that ends up monetizing the credits. So sold prior to placed in service. And so there’s a big question there, is the sales price there within the right sort of supportable value for that project? Looking at appraisals and such, and was that sale done properly, right? So that’s another area that’s capable of being insured. Third area is what we call structure and allocation or transferability, okay. This is getting at, in a nutshell, does the credit make it to the right spot, right? So you got a project company, does the credit go from that company to the tax equity investor pre-’22 and sometimes now as well, or to the new buyer who’s buying it under these transferability agreements? Is it done properly, okay? That’s third bucket. Fourth bucket is what’s called recapture. So over the course of the next five years, after it’s been placed in service on a pro-rata basis each year, some of the credits can be clawed back if the equipment gets taken out of service effectively, right, and there’s a number of ways that that can happen. There could be a huge casualty event, you know, weather or otherwise that wipes out a facility, there could be a foreclosure because the lenders against the project aren’t getting paid and, therefore, foreclose and sale and sell the underlying facility to recoup their investment. A number of different things that can trigger that. And as a result, it’s, it’s much less a tax underwrite than it is a credit underwrite and making sure that there are certain protections in place to be able to make sure that that’s been satisfied. So long-winded answer, but there’s a lot of things to cover there.

Fiona: Yeah, got you. Yeah, that’s a section the of the interview I’m gonna go back and listen to again, there’s so much there. But as a quick follow up, are there any risks you think worth mentioning that are not able to be insured or can’t be fully insured?

Jerry: This is a new area, there’s a lot of new areas in here, right. So the IRA has spurred as it was hoping to do a lot of activity in places that folks have not really spent a lot of time on. Okay, so anything that’s new where there’s not perfect guidance out yet is an area where some underwriters will step away from, some underwriters will dip their toes into it, but have exacting requirements for what it’s going to take to be able to ensure and some folks are just gonna not ever get there until full guidance comes out. So there are a lot of challenges. I think most things we’ve been able to get to with some carve outs. Like you’ll get some pieces of risk that are difficult to deal with and determine and hard to allocate as to far as which entity takes the risk, right. So some things, for example, insurers are not really meant to be taking forward-looking risks, right. They’re looking to take, you know, evaluate a scenario, do the diligence on what’s out there, then take a view on whether it’s been done properly, right. But some of the things that are required are future looking. Perfect example is for doing a transfer, the selling party has to register the transfer, you know, the facility one, and come up with a number and then be able to put that on their own return, right. So if a transfer happens today, let’s say there’s a 23 credit, a tax return’s not filed maybe until August or September or September or October next year and that’s when those things get put on the return, which is not within the insurance’s control, right. So things like that we’re having to navigate and come up with an allocation of risk who bears that risk. And for transferee, this is back to one of your points earlier, you know, these folks don’t have anything involvement in the project. They’re not filing those tax returns, they’re buying a credit, right. So they don’t wanna take that risk. Why should they be taking a risk that, you know, the seller does the right thing that they’re supposed to do, right. It’s a challenge, but, you know, we’re working with folks on it and I think coming up with some good solutions

Fiona: Yeah, makes sense. As with many things related to the IRA and the changes that came from passage of that, I’m always wanting to say, okay, let’s check in in a year on this. We’re seeing so many changes and, you know, the IRS has kind of continually been issuing new guidance and clarification, so hopefully some of this will be cleared up, but there’s a lot there.

Jerry: Yeah, one of the things that just reminded me, I’m sorry, Fiona, just to backtrack and one of the things, one of those areas where guidance has been issued even, that’s still uncertain, is domestic content, that’s one of those adders that I mentioned earlier. Very, very interesting body of rules, which if you read them, literally requires you to get detailed cost information from your suppliers, right. So, I’m not sure about you, but anytime you go into a store and you buy something, folks don’t really like to give you their cost, right. What did it cost for you to make it? Well, I don’t really know. Very expensive, right. You the waffly answer, right. But to support your domestic content calculation, you need specific details according to the rules that’s drafted right now. Now, the industry’s trying to have that become a little bit more user friendly because it’s not very workable in the current construct and is probably chilling a lot of potential investment that otherwise would be viable. We’ve worked with some of our clients that come up with the workaround, beyond that to make sure you get the information in a different way, in a way that doesn’t upset the suppliers, but that takes a lot of doing, you know, there’s costs involved there and it’s not as straightforward as maybe it could be. So that’s just something thats kinda leveraging off your point about guidance coming out and a year from now maybe we’ll know a lot more.

Fiona: Yeah, yeah, definitely. Another thing that’s on my mind is just about the due diligence process for tax credit insurance and, you know, a lot of people who have maybe been exposed to the world of tax equity know that, you know, previously tax equity investments required a lot of due diligence. How does the due diligence process for tax credit insurance compare to, you know, the previous situation that was a really intensive due diligence process in the world of tax equity?

Jerry: Yeah, that’s a great question. I think it’s, it’s relatively unobtrusive. I think there’s a lot of documentation already prepared for any sort of financing party, right. So, you know, the tax transferability is just one element of it, but most projects need to get funding externally if the developers doesn’t have the biggest balance sheet in the world, right. But all of those documentation that you use financing are similar ones that will be utilized in this process. It’s really about gathering the right things and making sure it’s more tailored, right. So you, one new thing, no different than tax equity, but just one sub element of it is there needs to be some tax advice. We needs to be, you know, some bit of comfort that actually the project qualifies. You know, it ticks off some of those things we mentioned earlier, but I think it’s relatively unobtrusive relative, certainly the tax equity, but I think the key is it leverages off existing materials.

Fiona: Yeah, makes sense and that is something we always say in the Pivotal 180 courses is we’ll talk about the tax credits and generally how they work, but the lessons always end with consult your tax advisor, so.

Jerry: Very true.

Fiona: Makes a lot of sense, got you. Okay, Jerry, one, one final question before we sign off. Again, the world of both tax and insurance is very, very deep and complex, but we’ll try to keep it contained today. You know, you mentioned that because of the new transferability aspect of these tax credits since, you know, the IRA was passed August 22, that tax credit insurance has, you know, kind of taken off a little bit. I mean, I guess if you have specific numbers of like, oh, we’ve seen this percent increase or those type of figures, interested to hear what those might be. But in addition to just like the size of that market for that type of insurance, are there any other changes you’ve seen post IRA? It’s still a very new market transferability, I’m referring to, but any other aspects that you think are worth sharing with our listeners or, you know, that have really caught your eye as significant?

Jerry: Well, so let’s start with the sizing, right. I don’t have specific numbers, but more just, just kind of broad directional, I think about 50% of the deals that are done in this space prior to ’23, had some element of insurance on it. I think what was interesting then was that those risks that I mentioned to you before, all those bundles of risks, only select pieces of them were being insured by the tax equity investors. More sophisticated people who are involved, as you said, in the diligence of the projects themselves, right. So they knew them better. I think one of the big changes is that one, the number, the percentage of deals being insured I think has grown. I think instead of 50, I think it’s creeping up probably towards 75% of the deals these days are drifting towards that. And I think by the time you get into next year and the following, that’ll be solidified. But also what you’re seeing is that the scope of the insurance has grown, right. So instead of doing, you know, of those ITC risks I mentioned before, instead, you know, oftentimes people in the past were doing the qualified basis, that was the second one I mentioned and the recapture insurance, right. Those two things were common for folks to get. Now, when you have a tax transferee who’s less sophisticated, they’re wanting everything insured, right, all four pieces of that. Now, from a rate perspective, that doesn’t really change things all that much because once you’re, there’s kind of a minimum level that underwriters have to get paid to be able to be interested in ensuring anything in the space, right. Then adding incremental things to it, unless they’re really risky, it’s going going to be around the same level. I think one of the big things, however, that people who were the tax equity players in the past and now are being asked to insure more than what they typically did. Like I mentioned before, they might have just done say, qualified basis in the past, right. And that’s again to the can we claim a credit off the fair market value or only the cost of the installation, right. So an interesting dynamic there is that they were getting insurance just from the cost basis, call that a hundred, right, to the stepped up basis, the fair market value, and it’s called that 20, okay. So maybe the whole thing was 120, they’re just getting insurance on the 20, okay. Makes sense, that’s the riskier piece of it. And no one really claims that if you paid for something, you can’t get a credit on it. The big question was, if you transfer it and therefore establish a fair market value, can you get a credit on the full bit, right? So they were just doing that smaller piece. Now if they’re being asked to do everything, they’re 20%, you know, the 20 out of the 120, turns to the full 120, right. So even if the rate doesn’t change all that much, the quantum of what they’re insuring changes, right. So I think that’s a big change for that market driven by the transferability possibilities, right. Because now that folks are getting insurance for the full boat there, it’s being translated into the traditional tax equity doing the same thing. So I think that’s one of the big themes that I’ve noticed that combined with some of the other, you know, new newer credits that are being done for the first time, which is interesting.

Fiona: Yeah. Gotcha, okay, lots there. I think, yeah, a lot of our listeners are gonna have learned a lot from this conversation, so thanks for taking the time to join us today. Jerry, you know, before we go, where is the best place for our audience to reach you if they wanna get in touch with you about these topics or as you know, procuring tax insurance themselves?

Jerry: Yeah, so you can do it, email is probably the easiest way and I’m regularly responding. I, it won’t take long. It’s my name, so J-E-R-R-Y .smith, S-M-I-T-H@atlanticgrp.com.

Fiona: Great, that’s it, great, okay and we’ll type that out and put it in the description of the episode, so–

Jerry: Perfection.

Fiona: Yeah, easy to get in touch and yeah, thanks again for joining. Looking forward to hearing some more of these updates as the market develops in the next year and beyond. But yeah, a lot of great content here. I’m gonna listen to this episode twice, despite being the interviewer. So thank you Jerry.

Jerry: No, thank you Fiona, I appreciate the time.

Fiona: Okay, take care.

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